North Korean Transitionals

North Korean AK Bayonets

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porterkids
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North Korean Transitionals

Post by porterkids »

Here are a couple of transitional pieces. First is a standard AK47 hilt with an AKM bowie-style blade. Second is an AKM hilt with an AK47 style blade. Not sure about the scabbard on the second one. Looks very similar to the East German but the webbing is OD, not gray.
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porterkids
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by porterkids »

Sorry for the quality of the photos. Trying to grab some quick shots between about a dozen other things I'm doing.
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MDIvie
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by MDIvie »

I hate you Bill - Just kidding. Those are great pieces. You didn't have the 2nd one when I did the book.

Martin
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by porterkids »

I just got the second one two or three years ago. Came out of a friends collection. It's the only one I've ever seen.
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Mr. B.
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

Thanks for sharing these pictures. I am, by nature, analytical and inquisitive and have questions about these bayonets. I have seen many pictures of the first one, with the AK47 hilt and AKM blade, both from private collections and in various references. Unfortunately I have never inspected one in person. I would like to see one in person with the grips removed and make comparisons to the standard N. Korean AK47 and AKM bayonets. This Transitional version does seem logical, well made and original. However, I question why the ones I've seen pictured never seem to have any markings or numbers. All the N. Korean AK47 bayonets I've owned or inspected had the star on the cross guard, possible inspection marks and a 4 digit serial number on the pommel. Like wise all the AKM bayonets also had a 4 digit serial number on the cross guard as well. I wonder how many of these Transitional model were manufactured and if they were ever issued or used? Seems like there are quite a few around for just being prototype/experimental versions. The differences between the blades and hilts would have required significant changes in tooling and equipment for manufacture in any quantity. I wonder why this extra step and expense when changing over from AK47s to AKMs.

Mike
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Brian
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Brian »

Like Martin,I hate you just a little bit Bill :rotfl:
Those are both bucket list bayos. Damn. Only other guy I know of with them is Chris.
Where's that "drool" smiley?
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

Now for the second one, with the AK47 blade and AKM hilt. I have very serious questions about this piece. Some may be due to the pictures involving lighting and camera angles, etc.. To start with, the scabbard definitely appears to be E. German, (DDR), original in all respects, early, small rivet version. The original sewn on OD fabric hanger pictured is commonly found as well as the grey. Refer to pictures posted under the German AK47 bayonets on this forum.

This brings up the next question. The blade appears to be DDR as well. All the N. Korean AK47 bayonets I have inspected have had hard, bright chrome blades. This blade has a matte finish like the DDR ones. Closer examination shows a difference in the fuller lengths and the beginning edge grinds. By comparing several of each a person can see and get a feel for the other differences. Also the bottom line of the blade and the bottom line of the hilt do not seem to be parallel and miss-aligned at the cross guard. Again this may be due to the pictures/distortion. Pictures are of N. Korean bayonets with a random DDR AK47 at the bottom for comparison. More questions to follow.

Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

My next questions concern the AKM hilt on the second transitional bayonet. The cross guard and the ridge behind to muzzle ring appear too short. By using your pictures, draw a straight line forward across the flat area at the top of the pommel and it seems to intersect the muzzle ring opening as the ring is to low. The anti-twist lug part of the cross guard behind the muzzle ring is also too low. Some how this cross guard section just doesn't seem right. Do you have a representative AKM rifle to try this bayonet on? Does it mount correctly? Again no markings or numbers. No logical reason to have two reverse versions of a Tranistional bayonet in the 1st place. Why would the N. Koreans use old DDR parts to fabricate this bayonet when they had virtually thousands of their own AK47 bayonets to mess around with.

For me, this piece raises too many questions. The DDR scabbard and blade, The miss-alignment and messed up cross guard. In my opinion, it appears from the pictures to be a hand made fantasy item. Are there any references or provenance? Pictures below using a standard N.Korean AKM bayonet for comparison.

Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

Here are some more differences between a N. Korean AK47 and AKM bayonet to help understand the differences in construction and how they would relate to a Transitional version. These are just the external differences. The blade tangs are different as they extend through the cross guard, they are also different thickness's and machining behind the cross guard for the AK47 locking assembly. This is why I would like to see them with the grips removed. I included a picture of a striped AK47 bayonet, again for comparison.

Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by modellkm87 »

Wow! I have the Bowie transition, but not the second. Impressive!
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by porterkids »

Mike has his doubts about the second one. I'm leaving town tomorrow but will be sure to post some better photos the week after next.

As far as references are concerned, I can pull many bayonets from my collection that you will not find in any reference material. One shouldn't assume that since they haven't seen something before or have seen a picture of one in a book that it doesn't exist. There's a lot of cool and interesting stuff out there.
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

I agree with what you say about references. Many new discoveries have been found since most of them were published. Many also had erroneous, omitted, incomplete, and obviously misrepresented information, often borrowed from other unreliable sources. That's what is fun about collecting, finding, researching, and learning about new and old variations. I also have several items that are not documented or in any reference materials. Some are possible and others are obvious fakes. Some are rare undocumented real items and some I collect because I enjoy them and keep them as "representative" samples.

I would like to know more about your second bayonet above, with the AK47 blade and AKM hilt. Some things about the pictures just don't seem right or logical. In this day and age and the rising costs of collecting it is a lucrative area for fantasy and faked items and information.

Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

I still have many questions about both of these N. Korean Transitional bayonets. I am not saying that they are fakes or fantasy pieces, but analytically question the logic and construction of them. To illustrate my concerns about the construction, I disassembled a like new NK AKM bayonet and a NK AK47 bayonet liberated in Viet Nam in 1969. I have posted pictures of both from all angles to point out the differences. There is only one thing in common between both bayonets and that is the internal diameter of the muzzle ring. Everything else is different and does not interchange. The one piece blade and tangs are different lengths, widths and thickness. They are different shapes where they go through the cross guards. The top and bottom of the AK47 blade are rounded and the AKM is squared on top and bottom. The blades and tangs can be confirmed as one piece by the blade finish which continues several millimeters through the cross guard. The blade finish on the AKM is a soft/dull chrome where the finish on the Ak47 blade is bright chrome. The blade tang is too narrow on the AKM bayonet to be machined for the AK47 cross guard and catch to function correctly as on the original AK47 bayonet. Difficult to believe that they would go to the trouble and expense of manufacturing one or a few of either example, (especially using DDR components?) from the ground up so to speak. Again logic, why? Switch over to the new AKM rifles, (ComBloc clones) with the new bayonet mounts, time to switch over to a new AKM bayonet which is much easier and cheaper to manufacture. Why bother with "transitional" models either way. Anyone else have questions or opinions?

Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

More pictures of stripped down NK AK47 and AKM bayonets. Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

A few more pictures of NK AK47 and AKM bayonets, including mounted on the respective rifles. Note that the AKM bayonet mounts lower below the barrel than the AK47 bayonet. Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

I guess the main question would be how the blades and tangs are manufactured on the transitional variations. Custom made one piece or spliced together at some place? Or are the other components, cross guard, latch and pommel newly machined or custom made to fit the different blades and tangs? Too many questions for me? Help? Mike
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MDIvie
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by MDIvie »

Mike,

There is a photo of 6 of the first type transitional NK bayonet side by side floating around somewhere, I will try to find it. These have been around for quite awhile. This would allow personnel still issued Type 58 rifles to upgrade to the Bowie blade. Also, the machine work for the locking mechanism required on the grip tang makes me believe that this would not be something someone making a fantasy piece would want to do. If as you theorized as a possibility that this is a piece made by welding two bayonet sections together, I would think that the finish on the blade would be affected and would be difficult to duplicate. So, I believe that these were actual production items.

The other transitional looks a bit awkward to me and I've only seen photos of the one Bill has and no others. I'd really like to see a comparative view of the muzzle ring side of the grip between it and an NK AKM bayonet.

Martin
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

Martin,

I agree with your suppositions. I would like to see more pictures and details of the more prevalent bowie transitional. Especially with the grip panels removed. If you are correct, the retooling and machining of the various components required to make even a limited number of these bayonets would be extensive and expensive. I have trouble imagining the NK military being concerned with upgrading the bayonet for their outdated AK47 rifles when they are busy mass producing the new AKM rifles and bayonets. Perhaps we should consider that these bayonets were made up as prototypes or sales samples to sell or provide with the AK47 the were replacing in service? Possible why they are un-numbered or marked? We know that NK supplied AKs to many countries, Panama, Cuba, N. Viet Nam, etc.. The Bulgarian arsenal did something similar with redesigning an AK47 bayonet into an upgraded wire cutter style to fit on old AK47 rifles???

Yeah, I'd like to see more pictures of that 2nd variation too. It just doesn't look right in the pictures provided.

Mike
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Brian »

Chris, another serious AK bayo collector, also has examples of these. I think he might have provenance too.
I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Here's more proof that NK has a few oddities and transitionals...
Attachments
NK Rare.jpg
NK Rare Transitional.jpg
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Re: North Korean Transitionals

Post by Mr. B. »

I agree. Logic does not always apply. These pictures are good to see but do not appear to pertain to the issue of the AK47 to AKM Transitional bayonets in question. Note that these are much more current pictures and are of AK74 type rifles and bayonets. It appears that they have copied them from the other previous ComBloc countries. N. Korean AKM blades with 6X4 Type II hilts, (no wire cutter)? I believe I have even seen recent pictures of Chinese and N. Korean rifles with wire cutter bayonets and scabbard similar to both the Kalashnikov and US M9 issues. The situation with late and current design and issue of Kalashnikov bayonets is very fluid and not much accurate info is available. What we, as collectors, have available always seems to be old issued, obsolete and surplus items.

Mike
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