Izmash TypeII

Russian AK Bayonets
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steelmonkey
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Izmash TypeII

Post by steelmonkey » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:33 pm

Scored a couple of bayos while on the road. This one is a nice condition Izzy Type II and the other is a good used condition ((10)) 6x5. Great price, both $90 shipped.

I'm wondering if this one has been forced matched.

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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:10 am

A nice bayonet and in decent overall condition for the price. According to the latest references it is actually an AKM 6X4 Type I late version. It has a machined cross guard with smooth ground rivets and should have the arsenal mark on the front of the cross guard. Yes, this bayonet has been inspected, reworked and reissued with forced hand etched numbers at least twice. What may be the original number on the cross guard is lined out and painted over, (note paint on the front of the grip). The next number was hand etched on the grip and has since been ground off and replaced by yet another hand etched number forced matched to the hand etched number on the scabbard. The scabbard is a Type II. It has also been inspected, reworked and reissued at least once. The original number has been ground off and replaced by a hand etched. Below are pictures of the original numbers on an early and late AKM Type I for comparison. Definitely forced matched. Mike

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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:15 am

This is a AKM 6X4 Type I early version Izhevsk bayonet and scabbard in new original condition with original matching numbers. The arsenal mark is on the flat behind the muzzle ring. Mike
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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:23 am

This is an AKM 6X4 Type I late version from Izhevsk. It is in new condition with original matching numbers. The arsenal mark is on the front of the cross guard by the blade. Notice the matching fonts, size and spacing of the numbers on the bayonets and scabbard. Machine etched vs free hand. Mike
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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:35 pm

This is an example of an early AKM 6X4 Type II bayonet and scabbard from Izhevsk. Notice the exposed counter sunk rivets on the cast cross guard. Also both the arsenal mark and the original numbers have been moved to the grip. On this bayonet and scabbard the original matching numbers, (454), have been lined out. New matching hand etched numbers, (6182), have been added. This indicates the bayonet was turned in, passed inspection and reissued without being repaired or reworked in any way. Mike
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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:45 pm

This is an example of a later version AKM 6X4 Type II bayonet and scabbard from Izhevsk. It has matching original numbers. Notice that at some time between the late Type I and the early Type II bayonets the numbering changed from 4 digits to just 3 digits. Mike
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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:09 pm

This is an example of a AKM 6X4 Type III lightened pommel bayonet and scabbard from Izhevsk. It also has matching original numbers. These last several posts and pictures represent the placement, style, fonts, etc., of the original arsenal numbering on the Izhevsk 6X4 bayonets and scabbards. Mike
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steelmonkey
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by steelmonkey » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:44 am

Mike, this is extremely helpful. I learn more every time I log on here. You are a scholar.
Thanks
Curt

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RPBCPS
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by RPBCPS » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:05 pm

Does anyone know if the Tula arsenal produced an AKM 6X4 Type III lightened pommel bayonet?

In my collection I have a brand new unissued Izhevsk example, but I have never seen one produced by the Tula arsenal.
Stay safe
Richard

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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:01 am

I have been collecting AK bayonets for about 40 years and have never seen or heard about any evidence of Tula producing an AKM 6X4 Type III lightened pommel or bayonet. I have a shelf full of reference books and material and they all agree that only Izhevsk produced the Type III. However, new information emerges at times and we all learn new things.

I am surprised that no one has ever made a fake one by grafting an Isky Type III pommel on a late issue Tula Type II bayonet. I believe it would be physically possible to accomplish. Then we would all have to find differences between the casting and mold marks on the pommels to detect fakes? Mike

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MDIvie
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by MDIvie » Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:47 am

Tula fake actually has been done. A fellow here in Dallas milled one down. He showed me it but wouldn't sell it. Didn't get pictures, but it was a nice job. He also did one of the 6X3's with the cut down pommel just for kicks.
That's why I'm always leery of the machined reduced pommel units.

ilian
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by ilian » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:13 am

Mike don't give fakers good idea please :) (just joking)

I bought 10 years ago a "milled variant", i know now for sure that all the milled are fake.
It's the hard way to learn that preferable to know good and official source.

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RPBCPS
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by RPBCPS » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:32 pm

Mr. B. wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:01 am
I have been collecting AK bayonets for about 40 years and have never seen or heard about any evidence of Tula producing an AKM 6X4 Type III lightened pommel or bayonet. I have a shelf full of reference books and material and they all agree that only Izhevsk produced the Type III. However, new information emerges at times and we all learn new things.

I am surprised that no one has ever made a fake one by grafting an Isky Type III pommel on a late issue Tula Type II bayonet. I believe it would be physically possible to accomplish. Then we would all have to find differences between the casting and mold marks on the pommels to detect fakes? Mike
Thank you Mike, Martin and Ilian, for the confirmation and information.

Stay safe
Richard

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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:45 pm

These posts seem to have gone off topic with the Russian AKM 6X4 Type III question. However I will continue with that discussion briefly. No, I do not believe Tula made any Type III bayonets. Yes, it is possible they could have. They could have cast their own L.W. pommels or used the ones cast by Izhevsk or a sub-contractor. All the ones we have seen appear to have the same mold markings. There is also the possibility that parts could easily been mixed during repair and rework functions. Specifically pommel and grip replacement. Like most Kalashnikov designs, parts interchangeability was a requirement. Tula and Izhevsk used the same basic specifications to make the bayonets and scabbards.
Do Tula Type III bayonets exist? The question is it original, or reworked or just a result of someone like me playing around with parts today. One of the bayonets below is a Type II Tula the other one is a Type III Izhevsk. The pommels interchange! Mike
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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:52 pm

I will be posting more information and pictures about the Type III bayonets on this Forum under the topic, "Russian AKM 6X4 Type II with Light Weight Pommel". This original topic was posted before we knew they were actually Type III. Always new Info available and something new to learn. Mike

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MDIvie
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by MDIvie » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:59 pm

Must be nice to have enough bayonets you just take them apart whenever you want. LOL
Actually I'm jealous.
As always, great info Mike.

Martin

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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:42 am

I will guarantee that no usable or collectable bayonets are damaged in my experimenting. The two bayonets above are de-militarized with missing blades. I do occasionally buy cheap junk bayonets and components to repair and upgrade decent bayonets as well as destructing for learning purposes. I recently bought a quantity of mixed 6X3, 6X4, 6X5, bayonet hilts, (blades cut off), and scabbards. They range from V.G to Exc./Like New condition and I don't know why they were de-militarized. They came directly from a contact in the Russian Federation. Mike

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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:17 am

Here is a picture of the bayonet hilts I disassembled for the pictures above. Mike
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ilian
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by ilian » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:40 pm

Interesting Mike like always! Thanks

I'm looking your last pics strange mix for sure, that round hook, Izhevsk arsenal logo on the grip and Tula acceptance paint plus Tula arsenal piedestal mark? wow

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Mr. B.
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Re: Izmash TypeII

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:18 am

Marc, The Isky Type III is the correct one in the pictures. The cross guard hook is actually angular not circular. The cross guard is cast and the rivets exposed. The extra deep beveling and paint wear make the hook look round in the picture. It looks like I grabbed the wrong Tula hilt, I have 3 or 4 different ones, Type I and II, in a drawer. They all have white Tula marks. The one pictured is a Type I with the star behind the muzzle ring. It also has the machined pommel and cross guard with flush ground rivets. Regardless the pommels do interchange as long as they have the grips with the flat ends. Mike

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